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The Estatut? It is not worth it to take

This interview, published exclusively by the daily Europe April 25, is presented here in an extended version.
The themes are those of the Constitution of the Democratic Party in Italy, Spain and Italy of the need to form an axis for Europe to look more to the Mediterranean and the situation Catalan. With amazing reflections on the Catalan Statute which triggered huge controversy in Spain.

Pascual Maragall, President of the Catalan Socialist Party (PSC), he is a guest of the Congress of the Margarita. He was the mayor of the renewal of Barcelona, \u200b\u200b83 to 97, and president of the Catalan Government from 2003 to last June. He knows Italy, where he taught in '97 / '98 and follows with interest the establishment of the Democratic Party, which sees it as the first party of European history.

The Pd Italian

Viewed from Spain, Europe, and then, as you can see the process Construction of the Democratic Party?
I think that in Spain there is still a surprise. This project begins to take shape and I think it is a project of rupture of deep innovation, because it establishes a new dimension: a European political party. And in a more democratic party, that wants to be broad spectrum, not an ideological tradition. In this sense, it has yet to see the impact this will have in Europe and particularly in Spain, but in any case will be important. It is an innovation that is designed in the correct size: today's reality of this new country called Europe.

This process also offers ways out of Italy, So what?
The two novelties of this party are the ideological dimension but also the very broad geographic scope. The interest for us is the possibility of building a truly European party. Left, liberal, progressive and liberal, call it whatever you like, but that breaks with the traditional ideological derivation is quite marked. I believe that in Spain the PSOE, with Psc and Pse [the Basque Socialist Party - Ed] should take notes on this new reality and see it as an opportunity and not as a threat or a competitor. The European Democratic Party is not a competitor of the Party of European Socialists is an offer but an invitation to expand horizons ideological and geography.

There are different positions regarding the membership of the European Socialist Group. For her there is the problem of overcoming it?
I understand that the purpose of combining different stories in the Democratic Party in Italy is already complex and that you are in Europe then you are part of the PES is still more difficult. If you look to the U.S., the Democrats is Obama, Ilary Clinton, members of the South who are very conservative. The fact is that a wide ideological spaces must match a wide variety of matrices. I think we're getting used to this: a party is not a church and should not be, is an area where you are, more or less comfortably, more or less minority of course, but I think this is an idea which fits well in Europe: a European People's Party and European Democratic Party. Because what is decisive is the size, it is Europe, is space. A reality that, unlike the U.S., has many languages, has had many internal wars, and has a lot of diversity, although this is creating a new space of appropriate size. Why in the world economy of scale count in politics, you can not compete unless you have the proper size, Europe has seen him, you've seen the Italians. I think this is the road that leads to two major European parties. With great difficulty, of course. Mussi that is, someone who is, Germans do not understand it, the British who are skeptical.

As an old socialist what would you say to those in Italy who do not want to lose their membership of the left?
What we all need to understand is that there is a trend to the extent that the world is globalizing, the scenario is extended and the actors are more, have more space. That's what you've seen Italians. Others, not yet.

Statute? An error.

Let 's talk of Catalonia. A left-wing government after 23 years and the new Regulations.
The left is in fact already won the election in 99. When I returned from Rome and we presented ourselves into seats won in votes not because the government had not submitted the electoral law, and calculate the number of seats still under a transitional provision in favor of 1979 much to the right.
In the statute of '79 was proportional but the law was not accomplished, he favored the less populated agricultural districts where the nationalist right had more votes. This delayed the return to Catalonia. I believe that making a mistake: instead of designing the reform of the Statute moon reform of the Constitution. The constitutional reform is impossible? Yes, probably, but also that of the country was impossible, is not approved, there is, is in force, but on an interim basis, there is an appeal to the Constitutional Court. Viewed in hindsight, it was worth so much sfrozo? 287 articles, specify the powers of Catalonia, one by one, in every field, economics, justice ... No, I believe now that it is not worth the effort. Why is a state that has not yet fully stable, was adopted in Catalonia, was adopted by the English Parliament, was adopted in the Senate, with many changes, but even so there is an appeal and will spend more years ... So that might be better to concentrate on change of Article 2 of the Constitution - after the English Constitution is the creation of autonomous - where you create the shape of the autonomies. But not everybody, so the 17 English autonomous communities are not collected in the Constitution, their name, their limits, if you want. What you should do is to change, add in a two step self-appointing the 17 and say that three of them are national historic: Catalonia, Euskadi and Galicia.

Because the level of skills is already high.
This is already done, so maybe you did not need much discussion. Q

his is the proposal for a federal state?
Federal Yes differential.
When I was in Rome called me González and I wanted to get, having dinner at Santa Maria in Trastevere, I present candidates for autonomous elections of '99. I said, "Yes, I do not say no, but in some conditions." He asked: "What conditions". "Federalism". He said: "But is cooperative federalism?". "No, no, differential federalism". Because in Spain there are nationalities. In the U.S. there are differences between east, west, north, south, but not nationality, not language. But in Spain, Spain is a nation of nations. English federalism, which has a tradition, this is important, named Spain as a nation nations. Some said no, but Spain Iberia. What that future will probably be. With the disappearance of borders is happening. So, back to the point, Spain is a nation of nations, the Constitution does not say, and must say it must nominate. The reform of the Statute was an indirect way to solve this error but it was so complicated that it was worth it.

She was left after the approval of ...
Once approved I left. We achieved the most important things, what seemed the most important thing, the recognition of skills and on the other hand we had changed the content of social policy, politics urban neighborhoods, there was an internal devolution to Catalonia is very important.

An axle Italy-Spain in Europe

Let's talk about Europe ...
Europe is the Paris-Berlin or France and Germany. The completion of Europe was the embrace of France and Germany after two world wars. But now is the time that Italy and Spain say: 'We're here too! ". Europe is not just Paris and Berlin and London and Eastern Bank. No, Europe is the Mediterranean, the relationship with Turkey, Greece, see what's going on in North Africa. Not only that, but other more important things, it takes a bank Mediterranean.
Spain and Italy have to flag this challenge: to build Europe from the south, look east and north Africa. This matter is unresolved. No one has done and I think it is very important. Europe that moves, to Rutelli, Prodi and Zapatero, Erdogan, hopefully, to do this.

The Italian English political leadership is conscious of the need of an "axis"?
the business world. Enel-Endesa, Autostrade-Albertis, this is a fact. Apart from complaints from some ultra-liberal is an axis between businesses. I believe that without the entrepreneurial Italy-Spain axis, the axis of political Europe-Mediterranean is more difficult. But this axis

business has been criticized because he is accused of performing and non-political needs of the market.
There is a political interest that this works because the policy needs an economic background. Whether liberal, correct, matching the competition, but the policy must also look to take care of strategic business interests. Very carefully, because you should not say that the economy is subjected to the policy, which are operations that are not economically sound.